#does Jon play D@ny

[mitchelljoni]

i am fucking loving your fic but i don’t know much about this kind of music, do you happen to have a playlist? i would love to listen

omg Yes lol this is the ideal ask to receive....firstly so glad ur enjoying the fic. secondly, i am by no means an expert (classical music is not my...forte) but this is just stuff i like/i think most people enjoy/know...it's not an exhaustive list. it is probably impossible to make an exhaustive list!! I am sure there are millions of people out there who could do a better answer to this qn (some of them will probably see this) so im mostly just gonna link the pieces that are mentioned (so far) in the fic and then maybe a few of my Favs...

mentioned in the fic

George Gershwin, Concerto in F (what Rhaenyra is set to play for the King's Landing concert) - this recording with Jon Nakamatsu on the piano and the Rochester Philharmonic is probably the best one (it's the first one I ever heard I think) but a personal fav of mine is Andre Previn with the LSO

George Gershwin, Rhapsody in Blue (what everyone bitches is better than the Concerto in F lol) - again, Previn does a lovely version of this, Jon Nakamatsu's is also great, and I would be remiss not to mention Leonard Bernstein's version

Tchaikovsky, Symphony No 6 ('Pathétique') (what they are rehearsing at the beginning) - just linking the NY Philharmonic conducted by Bernstein because it's soooooo cool that you can deadass just watch it on Youtube...

Edvard Grieg, Piano Concerto in A Minor, Op 16 (what Rhaenyra tells Viserys she wants to play for the tour/she told Alicent she was always going to play w her conducting) - I think Alice Sara Ott's interpretation is mega, I tend to listen to her playing w the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orch but couldnt find it in my v cursive search on YT so the link is to her with the Danish National Symphony Orch

Sergei Rachmaninoff, Piano Concerto No 2 in C Minor (what Rhaenyra was playing at the Eyrie that she then got up and stopped playing) - you almost definitely know this one!!!! The music from the second movement is aggressively interpolated into All by Myself by Eric Carmen lol. Ive linked a Khatia Buniatishvili version (of the second movement) bc it's like...perfect imo also she looks amazing. not the point but still

Sergei Rachmaninoff, Piano Concerto No 3 in D Minor (what Alicent suggests that Rhaenyra plays for the Sunspear concerts) - this is basically famous for being like the hardest piano concerto in history!!! it rocks. every movement is a banger. linked Yuja Wang bc noooo one is doing it like her. also, another slayful dress moment!

Tchaikovsky, Piano Concerto No 1 in B Flat Minor (what Alicent also suggests Rhaenyra plays but Viserys rejects) - another Alice Sara Ott win...

Mozart, Piano Concerto No 21 in C Major (what Alicent remembers watching Rhaenyra playing etc) - loveeee this recording:)

Chopin, Nocturnes (what Alicent finds a copy of in the practice room) - honestly I just went ahead and linked all of them. pick your fav! probably the 22nd is not in this compilation but that's bc no one likes it and everyone thinks it's not rlly his since they found it later :/ awkward

Beethoven, Piano Concerto No 5 in E Flat Major ('Emperor') (what Rhaenyra played however many years ago that Alicent pretended to have never heard) - I think Hélène Grimaud plays this especially well so it's the one i linked. oldie but a goodie! but really any are good

Bach, Prelude 1 in C Major (first of Rhaenyra's soul-soothing classics) - Lang Lang <3

Bill Evans, Peace Piece (second of Rhaenyra's soul-soothing classics) - this is jazz, which I am actually FAR more equipped to talk about, but i have for some reason shackled myself to writing about classical music so....anyway she doesnt mention it by name but shes talking about Peace Piece. everybody DOES dig bill evans

Claude Debussy, Rêverie (third of Rhaenyra's soul-soothing classics) - Lang Lang x2 <3

Jules Massenet, Meditation from Thaïs (fourth of Rhaenyra's soul soothing classics) - honestly this piece is such a classic lol. everytime i hear it im like Wow Religious Experience much??? anyway it's actually from an opera (Thaǐs) so some versions have some quiet vocalising in the bg. which is nice if it's ur bag tbf. ive linked a nicola benedetti version bc i love her and also bc this one is just piano and violin which is what i envisioned w alicent and rhaenyra

vaguely mentioned in the fic/will be shortly

Felix Mendelssohn, Violin Concerto in E Minor, Op 64 (Rhaenys's solo violin appearance)

Edward Elgar, Cello Concerto in E Minor (Addam's solo cello appearance, one of my favourites in the world!)

Franz Liszt, Les préludes

Franz Schubert, Symphony No 9 in C Major

Jean Sibelius, Symphony No 1 in E Minor

Florence Price, Symphony No 3 in C Minor

Leonard Bernstein, Candide

ones i just like (this is not a list of the world's most exceptional classical music. i just like these ones)

Maurice Ravel, Pavane pour une infante défunte

Antonín Dvořák, Silent Woods

Dmitri Shostakovich, Piano Concerto No 2 in F Major and also all his jazz suites. love him

Like anything by Philip Glass

Hector Berlioz, Symphonie fantastique, Op 14

Felix Mendelssohn, Violin Concerto in E Minor, Op 64

Mahler!! All of Mahler!!

ive left out like the biggies like swan lake and the planets and mozart's symphony no 40 etc bc i feel like you will come across those v quickly...also i am actually a choral singer so I havent gotten into all that bc my playlist of THAT music is genuinely 8 hrs long which would need a whole other post.

so TLDR: this is a weird, selective, and not at all representative list of music you might want to listen to. Enjoy !

lol but in all seriousness, if u end up wanting to get into classical music, just sticking on any classical radio station is usually a good way to go, BBC Radio 3 is EVERYTHING to me, shes v important<3 also, in terms of streaming services, most are honestly p rubbish when it comes to classical music but apple music have a 'classical' app which is like the only decent way to stream classical music without literally wanting to scream in confusion imo. so if u happen to have apple music it comes w ur subscription and is good! ok i hope this helps and once again glad ur enjoying da fic :)

[fedonciadale]

On the topic of why Jonsa is a better story.

J*nery’s shippers refuse to acknowledge that her and Jon have completely different sets of values and life views. Jon is in canon horrified of burning people alive and physically scarred by fire. Jon’s political views are about collaboration and compromise. D*ny is the opposite. If GRRM goes for it it’ll bring lots of conflict and angst but they are fundamentally incompatible people, and since we know she is not going to end on the IT, it means she is not Jon’s final romantic partner. She is his Ygritte 2.0 but remember GRRM’s “rule of three”, even if it happens, she is not the one. Personally, I think it would be sad if Jon ends up with her, alienated from his family, from the North he has fought for, and he has to watch her unleash her monsters on innocent people. And he will never have children. Sorry, not sorry, she is barren. Show boat baby was nothing but a bait for the audience.

Val and Jon have also nothing in common and he has already rejected her twice because it means stealing Sansa’s claim and he doesn’t want to do it. There is also a tendency by shippers to forget Jon does not care much for the culture of the wildlings and is also horrified by Val’s brutality and the things she says about Shireen. They are also incompatible. She is not his endgame.

Sansa for Aegon? No way. Aegon will be advised to make an advantageous marriage and Sansa is not it. She cannot give him the North at the moment. Aegon is meant for Arianne, narratively it makes sense to align him with Dorne. Sansa for Harry? Nope, she is not staying at the Vale for long. Besides I think Harry is a dead duck, he has been cursed by Alayne. 🤣🤣

Sansa and Jon? Same values -no, Sansa is not the least northern of them, she is reliving Ned’s journey, her wolf is buried at Winterfell, she is going North- same dreams down to the details. Rebuilding Winterfell, flowers, their children’s names. It’s all in the text.

In fact, of all potential partners to Jon, Sansa is the one more similar to him, and him to her. They both throw tantrums and are classist. Yes, Jon is classist and a bully in AGOT. I admit J*nrya has the same potential but the problem is age difference imo. I don’t think GRRM is going to down that route with Arya and Jon.

If Jon and Sansa get together they can rebuild Winterfell and rule the North together, in fact the phrase a dream for spring appears once in Jon’s chapters. They get a satisfying answer to “no one will ever marry me for love” and Jon’s desire of being a Stark. And more importantly, they could have children that ensure that there will always be a Stark in Winterfell.

If given a choice, anon, what do you think Jon would choose, Dragons or dragonflies?, his Northern girl like his bio father? His red headed Tully wife like his uncle/dad Ned? Would he choose dragons plant no trees or a dream for spring, anon?

Hi there!

Yes, this!

Back in the day before I shipped Jonsa I thought (like everyone and their mother) that Jon€rys was foreshadowed. And I thought that Jon would fall for Dany and then realise that a) she's his aunt and b) what a terrible person she is and would do a self-sacrifice in the fight against the Others dragging Dany with him.

I now think that the antagonism will play out for real and that Jon will never love her.

There is no hope in that direction.

Jonsa is hope. I was so relieved when I finally noticed Jonsa and the foreshadowing. It will give them both love (although it might be brief).

Thanks

[aflashofgreen]

What the moon reveals in ADwD Jon VI

D*ny’s fire motif is undeniable but she is also associated to the moon in ASOIAF and has a lot of moon symbolism.

In ADwD Jon VI, Jon learns Ramsay is to marry Ar*a, and then Melisandre comes to him at the end of the chapter, telling him of her vision of the girl in grey. If we accept that D*ny is the moon(light) there are lots of interesting things going on.

Actually there are three notable passages where moonlight comes into play in Jon and Melisandre’s interaction in this chapter:

1) “The light of the moon was in her hair, her red hair kissed by fire.”

In the shadow of the Wall, the direwolf brushed up against his fingers. For half a heartbeat the night came alive with a thousand smells, and Jon Snow heard the crackle of the crust breaking on a patch of old snow. Someone was behind him, he realized suddenly. Someone who smelled warm as a summer day.

When he turned he saw Ygritte.

She stood beneath the scorched stones of the Lord Commander’s Tower, cloaked in darkness and in memory. The light of the moon was in her hair, her red hair kissed by fire. When he saw that, Jon’s heart leapt into his mouth. “Ygritte,” he said.

“Lord Snow.” The voice was Melisandre’s.

Surprise made him recoil from her. “Lady Melisandre.” He took a step backwards. “I mistook you for someone else.” At night all robes are grey. Yet suddenly hers were red.

Basically when Jon mistakes Melisandre for Ygritte, what he sees is red hair* and grey robes. If Sansa is indeed the girl in grey from Mel’s vision (here and here is some evidence), ‘Ygritte’ in this moment was symbolically Sansa.

*I have to note, earlier in ADwD Jon I, Jon offers these musings re: Ygritte and Melisandre’s hair color: “Ygritte had been kissed by fire; the red priestess was fire, and her hair was blood and flame.” This seems to imply different shades of red, or at the very least Jon makes the point of separating them from each other regardless of both women fitting into the umbrella term of redhead. One woman’s hair has positive connotation for Jon and points to sentimentality, the other’s doesn’t and the phrasing is ominous. So in Jon VI, either Jon mistakenly sees Ygritte’s specific shade of red hair, or he indeed sees Melisandre’s own hair despite mistaking everything else about her appearance... Does it matter which one it is? Ygritte was never actually there although Jon saw her, and Melisandre is deliberately deceiving Jon anyway.

More noteworthy, D*ny via moonlight illuminating red hair is being positioned as an interloper here since Melisandre is acting as one in that moment by messing with Jon with her Ygritte disguise, and when Jon realizes his mistake, his reaction is immediate and the opposite of welcoming.

‘Ygritte’ is “cloaked in darkness and in memory” but “the light of the moon was in her hair, her red hair kissed by fire.” As per the hair color conundrum detailed above, either the moonlight transformed Melisandre’s shade of red into Ygritte’s, or it simply had no incidence on the hair color Jon sees. Again, whichever scenario it is isn’t super important because the text tells us that Jon believes he’s seeing Ygritte, who is symbolically the girl in grey aka Sansa, and the moonlight literally helps him better see “her red hair kissed by fire.” The phrase “kissed by fire” has significance for Sansa as I explain here. So Mel-D*ny is given the role of interloper, but specifically one who can’t successfully drive a wedge between Jon and Ygritte-Sansa whom he can’t overlook.

Good time to bring up another quote from later in ADwD in Jon VIII where a woman's hair is also bathed in moonlight:

The light of the half-moon turned Val's honey-blond hair a pale silver and left her cheeks as white as snow. She took a deep breath. “The air tastes sweet.”

“My tongue is too numb to tell. All I can taste is cold.”

This passage is often presented as foreshadowing a romance between Jon and D*ny: moonlight transforms Val's hair color into D*ny's and the hair tastes sweet to her. Except as far as Jon is concerned, he can’t taste it. He tastes cold, which to him equals death (x). None of this necessarily invalidates the theory that Jon and D*ny might become romantically involved, but it’s a hint that their relationship will be uneven (potentially one-sided) and end, in quite a brutal way at that. Or if you favor a less extreme reading, it might just be pointing to the Others, which Jon and D*ny will likely be involved in defeating.

Moreover in Jon VI, while Jon initially mistakes one woman for another, the moment is short-lived and he quickly realizes it’s Melisandre standing before him and not Ygritte. It’s worth noting that since Jon was warging into Ghost when the confusion happens (“In the shadow of the Wall, the direwolf brushed up against his fingers. For half a heartbeat the night came alive with a thousand smells”) and the specific person he sees is Ygritte, a woman he loved by his own admission, the fact she “smelled warm as a summer day” is important and further indicative of Jon having future romantic feelings for Sansa.

Given everything I’ve detailed so far, I’m actually inclined to think that Jon will get involved with D*ny for Sansa-related reasons, probably trying to run from his feelings for the latter by projecting them onto the former. And still that will only serve to further reveal them, drawing a contrast that highlights that whatever he does genuinely feel or not feel for D*ny pales in comparison to his feelings for Sansa. Because it doesn’t matter whether the moonlight changes a woman's hair color – in one case, it couldn’t eclipse the red hair (whether that’s Mel’s or Ygritte’s), only draw attention to it; and in the other, Jon couldn’t share the sentiment with a pale silver-haired woman that the air tastes sweet.

[While we’re on the topic of a potential romantic entanglement between Jon and D*ny, I want to clarify that in the previous paragraph I’m not alluding to political!Jon – although I don’t think it’s entirely out of the question – just of a person trying to deceive and deny himself first and foremost, not deliberately setting out to deceive someone else for gain. Obviously that doesn’t negate that even in such a scenario where person A is in love with person B but involved with person C regardless, A is ultimately treating C unfairly.]

2) “though the moonlight washed years from her face”

Surprise made him recoil from her. “Lady Melisandre.” He took a step backwards. “I mistook you for someone else.” At night all robes are grey. Yet suddenly hers were red. He did not understand how he could have taken her for Ygritte. She was taller, thinner, older, though the moonlight washed years from her face. Mist rose from her nostrils, and from pale hands naked to the night. “You will freeze your fingers off,” Jon warned.

“If that is the will of R’hllor. Night’s powers cannot touch one whose heart is bathed in god’s holy fire.”

“You heart does not concern me. Just your hands.”

This time moonlight does transform Melisandre’s appearance (like it does Val’s in Jon VIII), yet Jon remains unaffected, suggesting he will have a similar reaction to D*ny.

Also, the text suggests that while Melisandre was probably using a glamor to make the confusion of identity with Ygritte possible to Jon’s eyes (“At night all robes are grey. Yet suddenly hers were red. He did not understand how he could have taken her for Ygritte. She was taller, thinner, older”), after he has fully returned to himself she also makes use of some kind of magic (powder, spell, a new glamor, your guess is as good as mine) that makes Ghost act very docile and friendly toward her:

She gazed at Ghost. “May I touch your … wolf?”

The thought made Jon uneasy. “Best not.”

“He will not harm me. You call him Ghost, yes?”

“Yes, but …”

“Ghost.” Melisandre made the word a song.

The direwolf padded toward her. Wary, he stalked about her in a circle, sniffing. When she held out her hand he smelled that too, then shoved his nose against her fingers.

Jon let out a white breath. “He is not always so …”

“… warm? Warmth calls to warmth, Jon Snow.” Her eyes were two red stars, shining in the dark. At her throat, her ruby gleamed, a third eye glowing brighter than the others. Jon had seen Ghost’s eyes blazing red the same way, when they caught the light just right. “Ghost,” he called. “To me.”

The direwolf looked at him as if he were a stranger.

Jon frowned in disbelief. “That’s … queer.”

(...)

Melisandre draped one slender arm over Ghost, and the direwolf licked her face.

The direct implication (supported by Ghost’s friendliness toward Melisandre, and especially his unresponsiveness to Jon) is that Ghost is not being himself, which makes his behavior a fabrication. In contrast, when Jon left Ghost and came back fully to himself (“I am not a wolf” he even thinks when Melisandre gives him a little speech in which she all but confirms she is drawing on some external power to submit Ghost to her will), he saw the truth of his situation and didn’t want his direwolf near Mel. This supports my reading that Jon will act friendlier than he really feels, maybe even infatuated toward an interloper with moon symbolism aka D*ny for a time. And it’ll be fabricated behavior that is essentially untrue to himself. But eventually reality can’t be denied: Jon sees Melisandre, he wants Ghost who is acting OOC to come back to his side, and while he acknowledges Mel’s power, “this was not a woman he cared to be indebted to”; similarly there will come a moment of clarity, a final epiphany of sorts, where Jon realizes that this deception he’s forcing on himself is hopeless. Because the heart of a woman whose face moonlight washed years from does not concern him.

3) “The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall.”

“Your Wall is a queer place, but there is power here, if you will use it. Power in you, and in this beast. You resist it, and that is your mistake. Embrace it. Use it.”

I am not a wolf, he thought. “And how would I do that?”

“I can show you.” Melisandre draped one slender arm over Ghost, and the direwolf licked her face. “The Lord of Light in his wisdom made us male and female, two parts of a greater whole. In our joining there is power. Power to make life. Power to make light. Power to cast shadows.”

“Shadows.” The world seemed darker when he said it. “Every man who walks the earth casts a shadow on the world. Some are thin and weak, others long and dark. You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall.”

Jon glanced over his shoulder. The shadow was there, just as she had said, etched in moonlight against the Wall. A girl in grey on a dying horse, he thought. Coming here, to you. Ar*a. He turned back to the red priestess. Jon could feel her warmth. She has power. The thought came unbidden, seizing him with iron teeth, but this was not a woman he cared to be indebted to, not even for his little sister.

Much like the interaction between Jon and Val I quoted earlier, this passage is also believed by some to be romantic foreshadowing for Jon and D*ny. Let’s look closer.

Melisandre is a red priestess of R’hllor. Obviously she supports Stannis at the moment, but ADwD increasingly stresses that the red priests in Essos believe D*ny is Azor Ahai, gathering big crowds of believers and encouraging them to support her. So in this chapter Mel is a servant of R’hllor (whose agenda as per the broader narrative is tied to D*ny, this latter’s echo in the text found in the form of moonlight) who attempts to win Jon over with the prospect she wields magical power and so can he.

But true temptation for Jon lies in the prospect of rescuing a loved one: when he sees the proof of his shadow “etched in moonlight,” his next thought is immediately of the girl in grey. Moonlight, which Melisandre uses to punctuate her promise of power, reveals Jon’s agenda, and he is only ever tempted to repurpose Mel’s power in favor of his own agenda, though he doesn’t succumb at this point. This could allude to political!Jon, but since Melisandre makes an explicit offer to Jon (“I can show you.”), it can just as well indicate a future alliance between Jon and D*ny / house Stark and house T*rgaryen (and Jon did wish for “a dragon or three” in ASoS Jon VIII after all so he might have motive).

The specific wording of the moon kissing Jon is not alarming since I've established an entanglement between Jon and D*ny is not out of the question but in fact likely. It also says nothing of Jon's own feelings for the "moon" but the two previous passages I examined do inform us that they'll be inferior to his feelings for Sansa.

TL;DR: There is foreshadowing in ADwD Jon VI for a) Jon having romantic feelings for Sansa, b) Jon entering a relationship with D*ny anyway, c) his relationship with D*ny being hopeless because his feelings for Sansa can't be denied, and d) Jon/House Stark and D*ny/House T*rgaryen forming a front, whether their alliance is genuine or a deceit on one side's end.

[cappymightwrite]

Hi Cappy! You know, you quickly became one of my favourite Jonsas with your spectacular analyses😍

I wanted to ask you: how do you think Jon and D*enerys’ relationship will play out in the books? Regarding the show, I’m a firm believer in the political!Jon theory, so I hope that in the books, if there’s going to be a Jon*rys “romance”, it will be one sided, with Jon trying to manipulate her. But is that going to happen, in your opinion? I hope that, even if he’ll manipulate her, there won’t be “romance” or sex involved, because we don’t need another (worse) Ygritte situation. I hope that, by the time he meets D*ny, there will already be something going on between him and Sansa. About that, do you think that Jon and D*ny will meet before or after the parentage reveal? The show definitely teased a love triangle between D*ny, Jon and Sansa. Since D&D basically loathed Sansa and tried everything they could to “punish” her, I don’t think they would’ve involved Sansa like that if that wasn’t a plot point in the books. Do you think that D*ny will be infatuated with Jon, realize that he’s in love with Sansa, and so be jealous of her and threatening her (and their baby perhaps, if by then Jon’s identity is out and Jon and Sansa are already married)?

Hey! Apologies for the late response — I am slowly getting through my asks, I promise. Aw, thank you! I just checked the date on my first Jonsa meta — an analysis of AFFC, Alayne II — and I wrote that at the end of March this year, which is kinda crazy. I really just cannonballed my way into the Jonsa fam, didn't I?

Anyway, onto your questions:

How do I think Jon and Dænerys's relationship will play out in the books?

To be honest, I really am Don Draper in regards to Jonerice:

I interpret them as foils, whilst also acknowledging them as ultimately connected characters, but beyond that? I'm not that interested. I'm a romantic sap who likes Jonsa, plus a medieval Norse nerd, so I tend to stick to what I like and feel enthused by. I don't really go in for talking about other ships that I don't personally vibe with... so I'm probably not the best person to ask.

But for you anon, because you had the good sense to grease my palm with praise, I'll indulge you! Although I'm not sure I have anything hugely original to add...

Instead, I'd have to say I agree with @agentrouka-blog in that I don't think Jon will fall in love with her, and I don't think there's going to be a love triangle, because as @fedonciadale has noted they aren't really all that compatible. I do think they'll inevitably meet, and I can see that meeting being quite tense, with a need on Jon's side to get her to cooperate in the fight agains the Others, and a pressure on Dæny's side to be recognised and respected as this sovereign power.

I think Quentyn's meeting with Dæny is a taster, a prelude to Jon´s in the sense that it´s not going to be this grand meeting of heroes who then fall madly in love, joining forces to save the day. It's not going to be that perfect marriage of "ice and fire" by any means. Certainly, book Jon is far more wiley and cunning than show Jon. He´s far more adept at manipulation, he's far more of a political thinker:

"Ask, I said, not beg." Jon pulled back his hand. "It is no good sending messages. Your Grace will need to go to them yourself. Eat their bread and salt, drink their ale, listen to their pipers, praise the beauty of their daughters and the courage of their sons, and you'll have their swords. The clans have not seen a king since Torrhen Stark bent his knee. Your coming does them honor. Command them to fight for you, and they will look at one another and say, 'Who is this man? He is no king of mine.' " – ADWD, Jon IV

As illustrated above, he knows how to bring people over to his/your side. He knows how to play the game... how to lie and flatter if needs be. So, yeah, I would be very surprised if what we've seen of Jon's political capabilities, his moral greyness, all goes out the window in regards to Dæny. Because... what? Because they fall "in love"? Nah.

The only narrative incentive not to follow through with Jon's political arc, with something of a polictical!Jon vibe, is because it would damage the sincerity of a romance between them. It would taint it. But that's working on the assumption that there will be mutual feeling, that there will be an "epic" romance, that misinterpreted union of ice and fire... which I don't think there will be.

I don't think he's going to bend over backwards to accomodate and praise her out of some instantaneous adoration... if he does do that, it'll be a ruse, a carefully crafted performance. So yeah, I'm inclined to believe that we'll get something of a political!Jon storyline... because Jon's politcal education/arc, the instances where he's had to conceal his true feelings, has necessitated that. And it'll be interesting to read it through D's pov, because that could fool the reader initially, only to be revealed later in Jon's pov potentially.

However, like you anon, if GRRM does do a political!Jon dynamic, I hope there isn't any sex, or dubious consent owing to this lack of explicit mutal feeling. I wouldn't want that for Jon, and I wouldn't want that for Dæny either. Certainly, I'd anticipate the tension to be on a knife's edge, at least from Jon's pov. I could see it treading a very thin line towards something morally questionable, and there's set up for Jon to become even more grey (see the baby swap), plus in part 2 of my Byronic Hero meta I've talked, albeit briefly, about the possibility of some kind of cosmic alienation occuring post-res... so it's hard to say what his moral compass may be like, particularly if he's a lone wolf, without his pack, in this situation.

For sure, it'll be Jon's toughest "performance" yet. Narratively too, it's a meaty, complex storyline, and the set up is there, I think. He's set up not to trust or approve of those heavily associated with fire, with death by fire. He's set up to "taste nothing but the cold" when presented with silver-toned hair. He's set up to be wary of the might of dragons. It's all laid out ready.

And I agree, I think Jonsa will have certainly been at least set in motion prior to a Jon-Dæny meeting.

Do I think Jon and Dænerys will meet before or after the parentage reveal?

I feel like it may have to be after... just because I personally forsee the reveal happening at Winterfell, because that setting has the most emotional significance and it's where Lyanna is buried etc. Dæny, we have to remember, is on another continent currently, and then will presumably be travelling from south to north?

I'm not 100% sure tbh. I like to think about what either option would bring to the narrative, to Jon as a character... If they meet before he finds out, then his relation to Dæny will certainly be something he would think about when the truth is then revealed... though if the location in which he finds out isn't Winterfell, will it be as impactful? But say Dæny and Jon do meet the before R+L=J bombshell, that would surely heap on more of the angst, it would shift his perception of her, or get him to re-evaluate her and himself potentially, going from the political to the personal, which is always rich ground for writing something emotionally poignant...

But I don't know if that would be a bit too much?

In my parentage reveal fic, the way I wrote it would mean that Jon and Dæny would be meeting after Jon finds out his true parentage, although Jon-Dæny obviously wasn't my primary focus. My focus was what it would mean for Jonsa. I wanted to write the reveal as a double-edged sword, a mix between relief and pain — relief at not being Sansa's brother, but pain at not being Ned's son etc. I just feel that by adding oh and the person I've been trying to dupe into aiding my cause is also my aunt overloads things, if that makes sense? The reveal should involve conflicting emotions, for sure, because that's interesting to read, but not so many factors that the clarity of its impact is muddied. I think by adding in Dæny, or more specifically an already established dynamic with her, which would then need to be re-evaluated by Jon, would ultimately detract from the double-edged sword poignancy of that sense of relief and pain.

On the otherhand... if GRRM wants to tease Jonerice, before pulling the rug out from under us, Jon knowing that he's half Targ is a bit of an obstacle. Though, maybe not? I'm really not sure, lmao. It depends on how much GRRM wants the reader to be aware of and privy to. I mean, I spoke about reading politcal!Jon from Dæny's pov, but if Jon knows his parentage, if he knows he's got to play her to some extent... keeping a tight focus on his pov could be very interesting, and it could parallel and call back to Quentyn's in an interesting way.

So, if I had to fall down on one over the other, gun to my head, I think logistically, it makes more sense that they'd meet after.

Do I think that Dænerys will be infatuated with Jon?

That's a good question. Would Dæny even fancy Jon? I'm not so sure. He's not exactly dashing (like Daario), he's not especially handsome by Targ standards, he's morose, he's sarcastic, he's brooding and solemn. He's a typical long-faced Stark. I'm not sure he's her type, just as I don't think she's his either. So, I don't think there's going to be an instantaneous physical attraction. I doubt it'd be lust at first sight for her, and certainly not him, lmao.

Furthermore, she famously called Ned "the usurper's dog", so already there is a bit of a personal bias and barrier there. Because I don't think their shared family history can be ignored. It's always going to be the elephant in the room from the moment they meet.

After their first meeting however, I could see her maybe being curious about him, on a personal level, because of the Lyanna connection, and that doesn't necessarily require her knowing his true parentage. He could well be the first Stark she meets. So, she might look for in Jon, in his character, his appearance etc, a better understanding regarding Rhaegar (why he "chose" Lyanna), and this could occur prior to the truth about his parentage being revealed (to her). But I don't exactly see her going oh I get it now, these Starks are irresistible! Instead, maybe she develops a begrudging fascination with him? Something that creeps up on her, unawares. I could see that being the angle GRRM goes down, because afterall:

Well who wouldn’t want to be Jon Snow — the brooding, Byronic, romantic hero whom all the girls love. [source]

I could see Dæny starting off with the upperhand, believing herself to be in the higher position of power, then piece by piece unknowingly losing it, due to Jon's manipulation of her, his playing to her vanity, her belief in her own exceptionalism etc. She may "fall in love" with the mask that Jon puts forward, something we know he's capable of thanks to his time spent with the wildlings, even to some extent with the Night's Watch. Because Jon knows how to conceal his true feelings very well. He is not the show Jon who supposedly cannot lie. He knows how to suppress the identity he longs for most and identifies with the most, feels most loyalty towards... the Starks.

It could be that through observation, Jon tailors his "performance" in order to appeal more to her... i.e. he starts flattering her more, acting more "dashing", but subtly, so that it seems as though he has become infatuated with her. So, Dæny may believe that she is getting to know his "true self" — e.g. he starts off cold, then "warms" to her — and that a sense of intimacy and understanding is being created between them, when what is really happening is that he is altering and concealing himself to better sway her to his own goals.

As they fundamentally are, as noted by fedon, they are not compatible, but compatibility goes out the window when one party is presenting a false version of themselves... a mummer's ruse.

Or, you know, maybe Jon-Dæny will be purely political? And then sort of tensely familial? God, what if there won't even be a suggestion of attraction between them? Wouldn't that be a turn up for the books. There seems to be this long held assumption that something has to happen romantically between them... but what if it doesn't? WHAT IF IT DOESN'T??!! What if she is unimpressed with him and he's unimpressed with her and... yeah maybe Jon has to employ some flattery and manipulation to get things done, but it never becomes a dubious seduction or whatever? Man... I'd quite like that actually.

Will Dænerys realise Jon loves Sansa and therefore feel jealous and/or threatened by Sansa?

l guess that would require her either hearing about their close relationship, or witnessing it? In the case of the former, assuming Jon is on a solo mission when meeting her, and he's doing a politcal!Jon... why would he give anything of substance, of real significance, about himself away to her like that? If he's concealing his true feelings, then I would expect him to conceal his true loyalties, and to protect those he cares about most, which would include Sansa.

So, I don't think Jon would be offering up any info about his real regard for Sansa (whether or not they’re secretly married etc) because that would not be politically smart at all. Who else then would be privy to the true nature of their relationship and then tell Dæny about it? I honestly don't know? Just the way I envision Jonsa becoming canon... I don't think they'd broadcast it, they'd want to protect their relationship and each other, until they're safe to love without danger and adversity (which makes me lean towards a marriage in A Dream of Spring, rather than Winds). With that in mind, if the only Stark Dæny ever interacts with is Jon, I wouldn't expect her to ever cotton on to Jonsa, because I would trust that Jon would keep that very close to his chest.

Possibly Dæny may feel threatened by the Starklings as a whole, jealous of that pack dynamic, if she finds out that Jon is half Targ, but Sansa specifcally? Hmmm, I don't know, not unless they meet, I think. If Dæny was to become jealous and feel threatened by Sansa, by Jonsa, it would make more sense if we're presented this through her witnessing them together and then we get her pov on that.

Ok, let's say they all meet up in the north then, as they do in the show... well, if Dæny is infatuated with him and Jon lets his mask slip around Sansa whilst in Dæny's presence... Look, anyone who subconsciously, or consciously, believes themselves to be "exceptional" in any way (and Dæny does, quite clearly) is going to take significant issue with that, I think.

So, possibly! But I think it would depend of whether or not Sansa, Jon, and Dæny are all in the same place together. Having Dæny realise Jonsa is a thing and then to feel jealous/threatened makes more sense to me if Sansa is actually there, so the reader, as well as Dæny, can witness the contrast between them, plus Jon's dynamic and feelings towards them. If Jon is smart though, I'd assume he'd want to maintain a certain and strict degree of separation between anything that could make his mask crack and the task at hand, i.e. getting this proud, exceptionalist Targ with dragons onboard with the fight against the Others. If I was him I'd keep Sansa (as well as the other Starklings) and Dæny as far away from each other as possible, and I would never speak about Sansa in her presence, I'd keep everything vague and ambiguous, lmao. But perhaps the plot will foil that plan, because it would certainly be interesting material to play with... but who really knows... not me, that's for sure!

Thanks for the ask!

[dontbipanicjonsa]

Dutiful Sansa Stark

Plus some extra stuff about perceptions and POV traps

Read under the cut-

Tyrion 

"No," Sansa said at once. "You . . . you are kind to offer, but . . . there are no devotions, my lord. No priests or songs or candles. Only trees, and silent prayer. You would be bored."

"No doubt you're right." She knows me better than I thought. "Though the sound of rustling leaves might be a pleasant change from some septon droning on about the seven aspects of grace." Tyrion waved her off. "I won't intrude. Dress warmly, my lady, the wind is brisk out there."

He was tempted to ask what she prayed for, but Sansa was so dutiful she might actually tell him, and he didn't think he wanted to know.

xxx

He wondered what Sansa would do if he leaned over and kissed her right now. Flinch away, most likely. Or be brave and suffer through it, as was her duty. She is nothing if not dutiful, this wife of mine. If he told her that he wished to have her maidenhead tonight, she would suffer that dutifully as well, and weep no more than she had to.

Littlefinger

A true daughter would not refuse her sire a kiss, so Alayne went to him and kissed him, a quick dry peck upon the cheek, and just as quickly stepped away.

"How . . . dutiful." Littlefinger smiled with his mouth, but not his eyes.

xxx

She hugged him dutifully and kissed him on the cheek. "I am sorry to intrude, Father. No one told me you had company."

"You are never an intrusion, sweetling. I was just now telling these good knights what a dutiful daughter I had."

"Dutiful and beautiful," said an elegant young knight whose thick blond mane cascaded down well past his shoulders.

That's a lot of dutiful.

On the surface it seems like these two situations- one with Tyrion and one with LF- parallel each other; creepy, older men interested in Sansa think she's too 'dutiful' because she suffers through their attentions. However, when we dig deeper it becomes clear that the two situations actually contrast in subtle ways.

Tyrion

Tyrion calls her dutiful, but what duty is she fulfilling? She actually fails to fulfil her biggest duty to him i.e. having his babies (ew).

Or rather, she refuses to do her duty to him.

"On my honor as a Lannister," the Imp said, "I will not touch you until you want me to."

It took all the courage that was in her to look in those mismatched eyes and say, "And if I never want you to, my lord?"

His mouth jerked as if she had slapped him. "Never?"

Cue me falling ever deeper in love

This is a powerful scene. Tyrion is willing to give her an inch, but she goes and takes a mile. She could have just said "yes, I'll let you know when I want you" and then never let him know, but instead she said that. His plan was to postpone the consummation, but now she’s taken the opportunity to tell him that if she had her way, they would never consummate their marriage. He can still go through with it, but with this one statement (knowingly or unknowingly) she's put the onus of choice on him. He can still touch her, he can still consummate the marriage- but Sansa will never want him to. It’s still her ‘duty’ to suffer through it, but now any future sexual contact between them is undoubtedly in the non-con category.

That doesn't sound like Sansa is just reluctant to do her duty, it sounds like she's rejecting it.

In fact, Sansa is basically never shown to think about her 'duties' as his wife. Eating lunch with him may be her 'duty', but she isn't doing it for that reason. She's doing it because what other choice does she have?

Honestly I'm not sure where he even gets the idea that she's oh-so-dutiful, because as far as I can tell, she's really just doing the bare minimum she can get away with doing as his political-prisoner-child-bride.

Sansa does not, for a single second, give a flying fuck about her duty to Tyrion and I love her for it.

And yet, Tyrion's my-dutiful-wife false belief is what allows her to get away with planning her escape. Tyrion fails to be suspicious of her even when he absolutely should be re: that first quote.

So-

Tyrion likes to think Sansa is dutiful (for some reason).

Sansa is not dutiful.

Sansa doesn't seem to be aware that Tyrion thinks she is, but it works to her advantage nevertheless.

Littlefinger

Now in Littlefinger's case she really is playing the dutiful daughter.

This time, fulfilling her 'duty' as his daughter is in her best interest, because it acts as an excuse to avoid what he really wants from her. It's basically the reverse of the Tyrion Situation.

So-

Littlefinger thinks Sansa is dutiful because she is.

She's acting dutiful on purpose (to diffuse his sexual attraction (ew) towards her).

Clearly, it's working to her advantage.

Now, onto the extra stuff-

We have this-

Dontos chuckled. "My Jonquil's a clever girl, isn't she?"

"Joffrey and his mother say I'm stupid."

"Let them. You're safer that way, sweetling.

xxx

"The g-g-godswood, my lord," she said, not daring to lie. "Praying . . . praying for my father, and . . . for the king, praying that he'd not be hurt."

"Think I'm so drunk that I'd believe that?" He let go his grip on her arm, swaying slightly as he stood, stripes of light and darkness falling across his terrible burnt face. "You look almost a woman . . . face, teats, and you're taller too, almost . . . ah, you're still a stupid little bird, aren't you?

xxx

"There's to be so much, my lord. I have a little tummy." She fiddled nervously with her hair and looked down the table to where Joffrey sat with his Tyrell queen.

Does she wish it were her in Margaery's place? Tyrion frowned. Even a child should have better sense.

Sansa goes under the radar so well in KL because people think she's too stupid to do anything. Again, we see Tyrion, an overall smart guy, fail to be suspicious of Sansa's very suspicious behavior nevermind that she IS a child you asshole because he thinks she's stupid.

So-

People think Sansa is stupid

She's not stupid. We also don't see Sansa actively encouraging that perception, which makes sense because-

she doesn't need to. They do that all by themselves and

she's too busy believing she really is stupid, poor kid

3. It works to her advantage anyway.

Which leads me to-

"I forgot, you've been hiding under a rock. The northern girl. Winterfell's daughter. We heard she killed the king with a spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather wings like a bat, and flew out a tower window. But she left the dwarf behind and Cersei means to have his head."

xxx

"Your Grace has forgotten the Lady Sansa," said Pycelle.

The queen bristled. "I most certainly have not forgotten that little she-wolf."

xxx

"The dwarf's wife did the murder with him," swore an archer in Lord Rowan's livery. "Afterward, she vanished from the hall in a puff of brimstone, and a ghostly direwolf was seen prowling the Red Keep, blood dripping from his jaws."

So-

People thinking Sansa murdered Joffrey with her witchy wolf ways.

She didn't.

???

I am SO looking forward to see where this goes.

More extra stuff-

This entire post grew out of me obsessing over this post.

It got me thinking that out of the six core characters, Sansa is the most observed one. We see her in real time through the chapters of other POV characters the most. I counted. My count can be up or down by about one or two chapters, but I have Sansa pegged at around 15 chapters, followed by Tyrion at 11, then A*ya (around 9), then Jon (around 8), then Bran (4), and then D*ny (0). This is exacerbated by the fact that Sansa has some of the least number of POV chapters of the 'core six'. This means that-

We see Sansa more (or at more than others) from other POVs than her own. In other words, we get to be in Sansa's head less and in other characters' head thinking about her more (unlike most other main characters).

This plays a BIG ROLE in her POV trap, which is pretty much the opposite of D*ny's POV trap in terms of both what it is hiding and how

Perception and reality play a very obvious and direct part in Sansa's story, both her own perceptions and others' perceptions of her.

The Vale arc changes everything though. Now suddenly-

She's surrounded by an entirely new cast of people

She's the only POV character in the location

She has an entirely new identity with none of the same pre-conceived biases attached (though there sure are other pre-conceived biases that go with her identity)

This has happened with other characters as well (Tyrion in ADWD, Arya in every other book), but the impact it has on our perception of her is unique. It's basically reversing everything her POV trap was previously built on.

Now, she is her own worst critic. Now, the thoughts that other POV characters have of her (Tyrion, Cersei) are increasingly muddled. Is she a murderous sorcerer, or a stupid little girl? Was she dutiful, or a scheming traitor? The correct answer is-

she was none of those things. Everyone is just....trapped by their own PoV?

[redteabaron]

How do you think Sansa will clear the accusation of regicide? While I do think north will certainly have no problem with this considering Robb was fighting against crown and joffery did killed Ned, the westroes still believes that Sansa alongside Tyrion was involved in killing the king. Cersei is still looking for her. Do you think it will be similar that happens in show?

Yes and no - the show gives us the barest bones of things to come imo, but the show went with decisions that were either more popular or more shocking and even if they did things they clearly didn't want to do (like make Bran king which tbh I'm still on the fence about Bran being the king of Westeros as he's a Stark and then for another Stark to be monarch of a freed North is kinda....while Jon being king, to me, would've been another flip side of him going to the NW/exile by another name) they still did it...in the shittiest, most passive aggressive way they could get away with.

And like...i realize some ppl believe that Tyrion will clear "their" names but...what, suddenly she's innocent because Tyrion, bringer of a new conqueror, vouches for her out of the goodness of his heart? That sounds off, too, right?

The only way for her name to be cleared is if a reigning monarch does so - or, if it deemed that it wasn't really regicide, which what I'm guessing is more likely - after all, when Elizabeth I had Mary of Scots executed, it wasn't strictly regicide as Mary had abdicated previously. Proving Joffrey is a bastard, and making it stick is the trickier part - which would mean forcing the Lannisters off the IT. That would be where Aegon or D@ny step in; to help or try to use this further their own goals, if indeed they find it okay to work with the Starks after what happened during Robert's Rebellion. My guess? Due to Arianne's influence and Dorne's practical manners during times of war, that Aegon would be more amenable to pardoning Sansa (likely if she marries a bannermen of his but that's pretty normal protocol) just because the Martells are pragmatic even when dealing with obviously personal grudges - tho I don't see him agreeing to Northern Independence. Anyway...regicide, even when excused during wartime isn't ever really let go of, is it? Even if Joffrey is Aerys in this scenario...even if it is false, it is the truth Westeros knows now - and kind of makes her share that parallel of possible stigma with Jaime. (And tyrion too I guess but whatever)

You're right- the North likely won't care, save for those who betrayed their own during the RW, and it's unlikely that Riverrun, the Vale (because I'm banking on Sweetrobin outliving that fucko LF, etc), Dorne, Iron Islands even will give much of a fuck about it, beyond the distant concept of it being regicide (of someone who was "mad" and on top of that not the actual heir). So, idk. There's a lot at play for Sansa to be pardoned. Aegon may offer it in exchange for the North coming to heel and aiding him in the south. Idk if D@ny will negotiate much tbh. She's less of a negotiator because she finds it boring and dull - and by her own admission, it's slow and doesn't give her the results she wants because she doesn't like compromise.

Of course, I doubt Aegon will be able to deliver on that pardon if he ever extends it since...you know...dance of dragons and all. Even if he does though, she'd likely still exist in that same gray space Jaime Lannister occupied, and could partially account for why she'd never travel south again.

It could be that she's never pardoned until The Spring (whenever the hell that is), or when Bran is king he pardons her at the end, who knows?

Personally...idk if she actually will clear her name legitimately. Joffrey is universally hated by everyone but Cersei. And it's not like regicide was always a death sentence or political suicide historically for those that did it. Who knows, anon? 🤷‍♀️

Sorry I didn't answer your question, but it is a good one, and I've had a couple drinks already so this is the best I can do.

[qiyansluvr]

i’ve given up...

Jonny boy, Arya my child, I have never in my life been so disappointed in someone, never, and you two are off the charts right now. I lost so much respect for both of you.

D&D, i’m coming for you

[velaharker]

Jonsa Social Media AU’s

I’ve compiled a list of all the Jonsa Social Media AU’s I could find -- so any fic or edit where the story is told entirely via digital interactions and without prose. Please let me know if I’m missing any, and I’ll add them to the list! 

MULTIPLE SOCIAL PLATFORMS

Subject: La Bamba | @ghost-of-bambi​ | Trust Margaery Tyrell to turn Sansa Stark's 21st birthday party into an exercise in matchmaking.

*bright like the sun | @theshipshipper​ | Jon and Sansa are at the peak of their careers when they sign onto a new film as co-stars. 

*into the limelight | @theshipshipper​ | Jon and Sansa have been dating in secret for the last two years. Chaos ensues once they’re caught kissing in one of Theon’s vlogs.

*we could be | @theshipshipper​ | After being a quiet observer of their mutual pining, Loras Tyrell is now convinced it’s up to him to get Jon and Sansa to finally fess up to their feelings.

TEXTING

*untitled text video edit | @amymel86 | Sansa is pregnant

*untitled text video edit | @jonsa-creatives | Sansa wants Jon’s do(n)g

*untitled text video edit | @jonsa-creatives | A doggie meet-cute 

*untitled text video edit | @jonsa-creatives | Photoshoot, part 1

*untitled text video edit | @jonsa-creatives | Photoshoot, part 2

DAMN IT, AUTOCORRECT | @theshipshipper | Wherein Robb is the smartest person in the world.

betrayal | @darthprongs | A texting au in which Jon and Sansa break up, Robb can't pick a side and Theon is betrayed.

Harley Quinn | @darthprongs | When Sansa Stark moves to King's Landing, her problems with Jon Snow are finally solved.

apartment 278 | @darthprongs | A war is declared on apartment 278.

mama mia, does it show again? | @dancemajicdance​ | In which Jon and Sansa think they’re -so slick-, but their friends aren’t so easily fooled.

the coffee table kissing bet | @dancemajicdance​ | You remind me of pinky toes. You're cute, small, dainty. And I'm probably going to bang you on the coffee table later.

take the black (thing) | @dancemajicdance​ | I need your advice... Nevermind, I already did the stupid thing.

if you like piña coladas | @dancemajicdance​ | Why is all the rum gone?

a xanax a day keeps the targaryens away | @dancemajicdance​ | Jon’s father attempts to give him some advice on how to get the girl.

let’s put it into motion | @dancemajicdance​ | In which Theon ships it, and makes it happen.

the dirty romance novel chronicles | @dancemajicdance​ | Jon gets wasted and attempts to seduce Sansa via text message. 

Spoiler Alert | @zarahjoyce​ | An actor AU in which Jon and Sansa play Kit and Sophie in a Game of Thrones-esque series 

The Big Bang Theory | @zarahjoyce​ | Jon and Sansa’s friends conspire to bring them together 

Loose Lips Tell No Lies | @zarahjoyce​ | Group chats and alcohol 

pinedemic | @zarahjoyce​ | A covid-19 chatfic 

Jonsa Snapshots | @ludholtzjj​ | A series of unrelated textfics 

Confusion | @ludholtzjj​ | Whilst Jon's out in town, Sansa sends him on an errand, but what happens when Jon gets confused?

A Snacc | @ludholtzjj​ | Snacc: someone that looks so good you want to eat them... like a snack. 

You Fool | @ludholtzjj​​ | What happens when Sansa decides to drop a bomb on Robb through a series of texts?

EMAIL

Casting Call | @zarahjoyce​ | Sequel to Spoiler Alert 

TWITTER

*untitled twitter edit | @theblackbooknerd​ | Jon & Sansa celebrate six months of marriage, Greyworm is salty, Bran is being a messy bitch as per usual and Arya is sickened by Jonsa’s mushiness.

*untitled twitter edit | @theblackbooknerd​ | Jon asks Princess Arianne for lemons

*untitled twitter edit | @theblackbooknerd​ | Jon’s coronation

*untitled twitter edit | @theblackbooknerd​ | How Jon and Sansa resolve fights

*untitled twitter edit | @theblackbooknerd​ | Cersei welcomes Jonsa to King’s Landing

*untitled twitter edit | @theblackbooknerd​ | Jon has a problem with incest and is scared by Arya

*untitled twitter edit | @theblackbooknerd​ | Bran catches Jonsa in the act

*untitled twitter edit | @theblackbooknerd​ | Sansa vs. D*ny

*untitled twitter edit | @theblackbooknerd​ | More Sansa vs. D*ny

BONUS

*The Bachelorette AU edit | @flibbertigiblet​ | Suitors from far and wide arrive at Winterfell to prove their worth to the young sovereign, including a few, er…rather familiar faces…

*Told via photo or video edits 

Note: I edited/added many of the summaries from their original form for brevity’s sake. 

[keytothenorth]

Thinking about the fact that Melisandre tells d*enerys “you have a part to play — as does another. Jon Snow,” inferring that she could be the Princess who was Promised, but she didn’t kill the n*ght king, Arya did. And with that all of the dead fell, no dragons needed. Jon was the one who rallied the North, and he wouldn’t have done so without Sansa coming to the Wall. Without D*ny, Sansa would have still motivated him to fight in the BotB instead of heading South, Jon would have still become King and readied the North for the white walkers, Arya would have still come home North and killed the Night King.

All they needed from her was dragonglass.

[fortunatelylori]

GOT: The exhausting march towards the dramatic TWIST

I think I’m going to shock people with this statement but ... out of all the season 8 episodes we’ve seen so far, episode 4 is by far my favorite. 

Now don’t get too excited by the seemingly warm tone ... what I mean by favorite is that I hated it less than episode 1 through 3, which is about as high a praise as I’m likely going to have for this debacle that is season 8. 

General impressions:

There are two reasons why I felt this episode was better than the last 3: 

1. It was more focused, with 3 clear storylines: D*ny’s war for the crown (story A), Jon’s and his family continuing to be dead inside (story B), Jaime’s return to his sister-lover (story C). This kind of focus and definite structure should be a given. However GOT decided to go all yolo on our asses this season and as we’ve already covered in my other reviews, it’s gotten to the point where I’m genuinely shocked to see an episode that doesn’t jump from plot point to plot point like an enraged orangutan on ecstasy. 

2. It was centered around this woman: 

Look at that face... Holy Shit! She’s going to give me nightmares!

Now, normally an episodes focused on D*ny would be bad news for me because I don’t particularly care for her, as half of my list of metas can conclusively prove. 

However, since she’s the only character whose POV isn’t hidden and her scenes aren’t cut short or drained of any and all possibility of actual human emotion, she’s become the only character that I can watch without feeling frustrated, confused or on the verge of an anxiety attack. I actually like to know what the hell is happening on screen and what the character wants in any given scene. Call it a pet peeve of mine. 

Although even D*ny, as well rounded a character as she is, suffers from the Ds oscillating trend this season. Last episode, D*ny stood her ground against the NK, committed herself and her armies to the defense of the realm and saved Jon’s life. This episode, she’s back in full Mad King’s daughter mode, with a pinch of Viserys on the side. 

But that’s a quibble, honestly and you can always argue that Jorah’s death really pushed D*ny into a dark place in which the crown of Westeros and her war against Cersei becomes more important than her own humanity. 

However, what isn’t a quibble is that death seems to have become a shorthand device the Ds employ to signal D*ny’s eventual rise as Queen of the Ashes. She loses Jorah in episode 3 and by the end of episode 4, she loses both Rhaegal and Missandei as well, leaving her in a seeming cliffhanger over whether or not to put the Red Keep to the torch as revenge. 

The problem is that D*ny had been chopping at the bit to burn down King’s Landing since season 7 when she had to be talked out of doing just that TWICE. This episode Tyrion once again has to put the breaks on D*ny’s fiery fantasies. 

This scene right here is a treasure trove of Mad D*ny clues. But let’s focus on two of them. Firstly, the impetuous to burn KL is stil there: 

D*ny: We will hit her hard. We will rip her out root and stem. 

Tyrion: The objective here is to remove Cersei without destroying King’s Landing. 

That is not a happy face ...

As D*ny put’s it, they need the capital because otherwise Cersei can continue calling herself the queen of the 7 kingdoms. 

That’s D*ny’s priority, folks: the acquiring of that stupid title. 

And if she has to march her weakened army, her sick dragon/child for thousands of miles and burn thousands of innocent people to get that title, she’ll do it. 

Considering this set-up, why exactly did we need Missandei and Rahegal to die? One day into Tyrion’s proposed blockade and D*ny would be roasting giant marshmallows in the Red Keep gardens. 

In my opinion,  the reasons for killing Rhaegal and Missandei are not tied to the dark!dany arc at all. Instead, Rhaegal gets killed because they want to make the D*ny/Cersei conflict as even as possible so they’re eliminating one of D*ny’s weapons of mass destruction. 

And Missandei ... poor Missandei gets killed in order to shock the audience. There is absolutely no reason to kill her in this way ... If she was to die, the time for that would have been in episode 3. They have to actually push the suspension of disbelief in order to convince the audience that somehow Euron got a hold of this girl from an armada of wrecked ships, instantly knew how important she was, dragged her back to the Red Keep and then brought her up on that wall expecting .... what??! 

Euron and Cersei are far too smart to believe D*ny will give up her war for Missandei so why kill her so publicly? To intimidate D*ny? They didn’t need Missandei for that. They could have just as well beheaded all of the hostages they took from the ships. 

They kill Missandei because that’s the easiest way for the Ds to surprise the audience and for them to garner some sort of sympathy for D*ny when she eventually does end up going all Pablo Escobar on a city filled with a million people. 

The other glaring Mad D*ny moment in the scene and one that plays straight into political Jon, is this: 

Sansa: The men we have left are exhausted. Many of them are wounded. They will fight better if they have time to rest and recuperate. 

D*ny: How long do you suggest? 

Sansa: Can’t say for certain. Not without talking to the officers. 

D*ny: I came North to fight alongside you. At great cost to my armies and myself. And now that the time has come to reciprocate, you want to postpone?

Jon: The Northern forces will honor their promises and their allegiance to the queen of the 7 kingdoms. What you command, we will obey. 

I’ve seen a lot of people being angry at Jon for “taking D*ny’s side” in this conflict but in order to understand how this plays into political Jon, there are 2 things you need to keep in mind: 

The first is exactly when Sansa intervenes in the conversation. She steps in directly after both Tyrion and Jon manage to convince D*ny not to burn down King’s Landing. D*ny reluctantly agrees to the blockade because that would mean having to wait to take the crown and as she puts it: 

D*ny: The longer I leave my enemies alone, the stronger they become.  

Now Sansa wants to delay her even further. This is not acceptable to D*ny. 

In addition to that, I don’t think Sansa appreciates just how dangerous and volatile D*ny is. She doesn’t know about the men being fed to dragons, or the 163 crucified masters or how close she was to jumping on a dragon and burning down KL in the past. 

Jon, however, does understand D*ny quite well by this point. I don’t buy his speech as him agreeing with D*ny at all in this scene and considering this is the face he puts on to silence Sansa: 

I’d say this is a guy desperately trying to keep a bomb from exploding directly in the face of someone he cares very deeply about. 

Narratively, I believe this is supported by the Sansa/Tyrion scene later on when Sansa is surprised to realize that Tyrion is actually afraid of D*ny. She simply hadn’t considered that people are scared of what D*ny might do. 

As interesting as D*ny’s descent into madness is (despite Missandei’s useless death), it’s counterbalanced by the shit show that continues to be Jon Snow. 

Watching Jon’s arc this season, and by extension all the Starks, is like banging your head against a concrete wall over and over again, without making a dent. It’s pointless, exhausting and painful. 

At this point I don’t care if he’s in love with D*ny or Sansa, if he’s pol!Jon or idiot!Jon, if he wants to be king or fuck off beyond the wall. I genuinely don’t care anymore. What I do care about is being given access to Jon’s story enough to figure out what the hell he wants and what he’s doing. 

It’s one thing to keep a character’s POV hidden for an episode but we’re going on almost 2 seasons now. And Jon isn’t a secondary character like Littlefinger where you can get away with hiding the POV because he’s not as big a part of the plot as a main character is. 

But Jon is a main character and this effort to keep him enigmatic and mysterious isn’t only wreaking havoc on his arc but it’s also affecting the rest of the Stark family. Case and point: 

In case anyone is keeping score, this is actually the first and only scene all the Starks have together in 4 episodes, amounting to 5 hours of footage. 

And just look where they decide to end this scene! Right when we’re going to see Arya and Sansa react to the parentage reveal and see what they and Jon discuss next. They gave us the mere bones of this scene and left us without the meat. 

The important part of the scene, the emotional underbelly, the opportunity to see these people come together and support and embrace Jon as the Stark they still think he is, is taken away from us. Because that would chip away at the mystery surrounding Jon’s arc this season. 

I’d argue depriving Jon and the Starks of the emotional bond they share is way too steep a price to pay for what is essentially a cheap thirll that becomes cheaper and cheaper by the minute considering they’re delaying whatever reveal they’re planning on making past the point of me giving a shit!

This episode did, however, give me the perfect visual way of describing Jon’s storyline right now. Jon is basically stuck between: 

and 

and he chooses neither. 

He sends Ghost away (without patting him because having KH and the wolf in the same frame would be too costly for the overly expensive GOT) and refuses to ride Rhaegal because ... reasons. 

So instead of seeing him choose between being a direwolf and a dragon, we’re seeing him do nothing, while looking overly enigmatically blank for 5 hours straight. I just .... I’m sooooo tired of this. Can this be over now?

PS: I’d discuss Jaime’s storyline this episode but I don’t want to say: I told you so ... Well ... ok, if you insist:

a little sour milk dribble on Tormund’s beard and a silly giant story isn’t going to make me forget that Jaime has arrived in Winterfell on the coat tails of a 20+ year toxic relationship with a woman who is not only his twin sister but is also currently pregnant with his baby.

Also:

Jaime: She (Cersei) has always been good at using the truth to tell lies. Don’t be too hard on yourself. She’s fooled me more than anybody.

Tyrion: She never fooled you. You always knew exactly what she was. And you loved her anyway.

Yeah …  Imagine entering a relationship with a guy exiting THAT. Dealing with sour milk beard is mild by comparison.

(source)

Favorite scenes

The “If you love me, you’ll erase yourself” scene: 

There is something so deeply disturbing about this scene that I can’t help but be fascinated by it. The J0nereys relationship has always been toxic and this scene right here encapsulates just why: 

In order to be with D*ny, Jon needs to give up everything that makes him who he is. In season 7, he was forced to bend the knee and suffer the ire of the entire North for it. Now D*ny is asking him not only to give up his claim but also lie about who he is and separate himself from his family in order to make sure that D*ny gets to be queen. 

No one, not one person in this world, no matter how beautiful, rich, good in bed or seemingly in love with you, is worth you giving up who you are and removing yourself from your family (provided said family is not toxic, of course). And anyone that would ask you to do that, should be dumped on their asses pronto.

Jon can’t do that, unfortunately. Because he’s brought D*ny here to fight “his war” and pretended to be in love with her. And also because D*ny simply isn’t rational anymore. So he’s stuck apologizing for people liking him (just think about that!) and having to put up with her saying things like: 

D*ny: It doesn’t matter what you want! You didn’t want to be king in the North! What happens when they demand you press your claim and TAKE WHAT IS MINE? 

Except the crown isn’t D*ny’s. It never was. Logistically speaking, the crown belongs to Cersei right now. Legitimately, the crown is Jon’s. It’s D*ny that is actually taking what is his, not the other way around. Imagine making someone apologize for you doing that to them. That’s all kinds of messed up. 

Speaking of which: 

Jon: You are my queen! I don’t know what else I can say!

D*ny: You can say nothing! To anyone! Ever! Never tell them who you really are. Swear your brother and Samwell Tarly to secrecy and tell no one else!

You know what she sounds like? Like Tangled’s Mother Gothel convincing Rapunzel that she’s better off being her prisoner. 

Yikes! She’s genuinely terrifying!

Also: 

D*ny: Sansa will want to see me gone and you on the Iron Throne. 

Jon: She won’t. 

D*ny: She’s not the girl you grew up with. Not after what she’s seen. Not after what they’ve done to her. 

2 things: 

1. I hope every D*ny stan in the universe either denounces D*ny for victim blaming or closes their mouths about feminism, misogyny and pitting women against women for the rest of time. If you support this woman and consider her a positive role model, you are not allowed to discuss these subjects in public ever again. 

2. Can you really blame Jon for taking D*ny’s side against Sansa in the council meeting? He already knows just what D*ny thinks of Sansa and what she’d like to do to her if she is given the opportunity. Hurting Sansa’s feelings is preferable to her losing her life. 

The “This better not be unrequited love, Ds!” scene: 

This face right here ... this face: 

It’s heartbreaking. And what really angers me about this scene is that it could have been all the more meaningful had the parentage reveal been played in full. Actually seeing Sansa reacting, hearing Jon’s fears or his anguish, would make her fighting for his crown when he refuses to do so even more powerful and romantically charged. 

Still, this scene comes in direct contrast to the Jon/D*ny scene. While D*ny wants to force Jon to live a lie for the rest of his life, to humble himself and make himself small so she can have all the power and the love of the people, Sansa not only shoots down the possibility of her being the only one in charge of the North and holding steadfast to the idea that Jon will stay in Winterfell. She goes as far as tell Tyrion Jon is the rightful heir when she realizes that despite his supposed loyalty to D*ny, Tyrion is actually afraid of her. 

She sees an opening to ensure Jon’s freedom and she takes it without hesitation. 

If, at the end of all of this, Jon ends up going beyond the wall instead of staying with a woman who loves and values him this much, then Westeros truly is a cruel and horrible place and I’ll be sorry I invested so many years of my life to it.

Episode MVPs

Euron “Best General in fucking Westeros” Greyjoy: 

Euron gets to be MVP this episode because in one fell swoop he destroyed D*ny’s fleet and brought down one of her dragons. What can I say ... Competency really turns me on. 

Too bad Cersei doesn’t love him. If these two actually cared about each other, they could be the McBeths of Westeros. Nothing could stand in their way!

Lord “What an Icon!” Varys: 

What can one say about this glorious man? He is MVP for the second time in 4 reviews and somehow I think he’s not done yet. 

Varys and Tyrion got down to some realpolitick this episode. But Varys had some truly outstanding lines, like: 

Varys: How many others know? 

Tyrion: Including us? Eight. 

Varys: Well, then it’s not a secret anymore. It’s information. If a handful of people know now, hundreds will know soon. 

It’s so rare to find a man that understands gossip so well!

Varys: I’ve served tyrants all my life. They all talk about destiny. 

As a person born under a communist regime, I concur, Varys. 

And my personal favorite:  

Varys: You know where my loyalty stands. You know I will never betray the realm. 

Tyrion: What is the realm? A vast continent, home to millions of people, most of whom don’t care who sits on the Iron Throne. 

Varys: Millions of people, many of whom will die if the wrong person sits on that throne. We don’t know their names but they’re just as real as you and I. They deserve to live. They deserve food for their children. I will act in their interests, no matter the personal cost. 

If this show doesn’t end with a 7 foot, cockless statue of Varys presiding over the whole of Westeros as the ICON that he is, what was even the point?!?!?

[sansuhhhsnark]

Asdfghjkl please help. I’m onboard SSJonsa and SSPolJon. But I cannot understand how dany’s who manipulated whom got Sansa to understand?? I’m just not tracking and I feel v dumb 😂😭

Don’t feel dumb!

The scene was very “subtext is everything”.

So we start off the scene with Sansa being politely distant to D/ny, even though D/ny is laying on the charm thick as frosting...

until she hits Sansa in a sore spot. Jon.

Sansa tells D/ny that Jon loves her (which idk about that but let’s continue).

D/ny isn’t stupid, even after all the mistakes she’s made. She sees what she wants to see, and right now she’s trying to figure out Jon and Sansa’s relationship, and why Sansa would be so put out that Jon has fallen in love with D.

Men in love are easily manipulated. Sansa says so. D points out that her ultimate goal is the iron throne, that until she met Jon she had no interest in perusing anything other than her birthright.

She jokes “who manipulated whom”

And you can see the wheels turning in Sansa’s mind. Who manipulated whom?

D is right, though she doesn’t fully understand. Of course Jon is manipulating D. He’s manipulating her to save his people, to save his home, to save his family. Sansa isn’t laughing because D made a cute joke about being twisted around Jon’s little finger. She’s laughing because she figured out Jon’s game.

Remember this scene last episode?

Sansa just got her answer. Sansa does a complete 180, turns on the courtesies,

And then once she has D where she wants her...

(I couldn’t find a GIF of it, but D puts her hand on Sansa’s. )

Sansa mentions Northern Independence.

And you saw how well that went down.

Sansa and D were playing the game the whole time during that scene. D wanted to figure out Jon and Sansa’s relationship and she wanted to bring Sansa over to her side.

Sansa’s goal was to figure out what kind of ruler D really is. Would she let the North have it’s independence after all is said and done?

And boy did she get her answer.

Sansa played her like a fiddle.

(None of the gifs are mine!)

[fedonciadale]

I’ve seen someone saying the second DoD Young Griff = aegon ll d/ny = rhaen/ra and jon = dae/mon and I honestly don’t care much about the first two but what about jon paralleling dameon do you think there is any ? I never read f&b so I can’t judge

Hi there!

There are parallels and juxtapositions and I would caution against identifying the cast of the first dance exactly with the cast of the second dance.

Aegon II was a ruthless antagonist to Rhaenyra and I must admit that I don't see Young Griff to be that brutal. But his dragon is a 'sun' Dragon (sunfyre, a golden beautiful beast) and this could point to Dorne.

Rhaenyra parallels Dany and Cersei. Cersei is present in her relationship with Criston Cole the LC of the King's guard who might have been her lover and her enemy. Rhaenyra als has parallels to Cersei as a Targ Queen who is determined to get her right even if it means civil war.

I don't see much similarities between Daemon and Jon to be honest. Daemon is a flashy, handsome, arrogant prince and not very sympathetic. The parallels to Jon might be that he marries Rhaenyra for political reasons (using her crush on him) and that might foreshadow political Jon. But Daemon does so for selfish reasons (his own claim to the Throne). Daemon also has an affair with a girl named Nettles, a bastard girl he loves very much. This could point towards a love triangle that involves Jon but Nettles does not resemble Sansa very much.

I think Jacerys, the son of Rhaenyra who makes a pact with the Starks is closer to Jon and Jacerys and the Stark bastard girl Sara are a Jonsa parallel, I think.

Anyway when I read Fire and Blood I had the feeling that the parallels are more about situations than identical characters. Criston Cole rejecting Rhaenyra in his Chambers gives Jaime rejects Cersei vibes e.g. The last obstacle for Jaeherys way to the Throne (a septon Moon) is killed by a faceless man / woman who gives strong Arya vibes and I think this foreshadows Arya killing Dany (the last obstacle for Bran?)

So, I don't really think that Daemon equals Jon. Some situations evoke others that might still play out in Jon's arc.

Thanks for the ask!

[dark-shade-of-academia]

One of D*ny’s most significant flaws as a ruler is her inability to plan for the long term.

D*ny tends to make impulsive decisions in the heat of the moment without any regard for the long term consequences.

She’s done this over and over throughout the course of the series but season 7 really highlighted it-

1. Burning the food during Field of Fire 2.0

D*ny chooses to attack the food deliberately which is an incredibly irresponsible thing to do considering how she was complaining about being unable to properly feed her armies earlier.

She could have easily used the Dothraki to fight the Lannister army and taken the food for herself. Instead she makes a childish decision with an ‘if I can’t have then no one can’ mentality.

Considering she portrays herself as someone who cares about the common people so much she probably should have refrained from burning the food that would help them survive the winter. We’ve already seen how the common folk react when they are deprived of food with Joffrey.

2. Burning the Tarly’s.

Again, D*ny makes a decision without thinking about the consequences. She takes an action that is a direct callback to her father burning Rickard and Brandon Stark alive. Considering how choosy she is about which parts of her fathers legacy she is ready to own, she probably shouldn’t take actions that mirror his own so closely.

All of Westeros is aware of the crimes committed by the Mad King and by mirroring his actions she is setting herself up to be perceived as Aerys reborn. Once the news of this execution spreads, she will be perceived as the Mad Queen especially since it is preceded by her saying that she isn’t here to murder followed by “bend the knee or refuse and die.”

It’s even more significant because she is heading to Winterfell where Samwell Tarly currently resides with the Northern Lords who very clearly remember the horrors of the Mad King’s rule.

After news of this battle speads, why wouldn’t the people be more inclined towards Cersei who painted a pretty accurate picture of D*ny. Everyone who has bent the knee to her under the threat of dragonfire will desert her the second a better opportunity is presented to them.

3. Arriving with her dragons for the truce with Cersei and her role in the meeting.

D*ny chooses to use an antagonistic method to show up at a truce in order to intimidate Cersei. Instead she ends up overplaying her hand and ends up giving Cersei valuable information.

Cersei gets a read on her so easily and understands that the threat of the dragons can be neutralised.

Again, all D*ny does is prove is how inept she is at diplomacy and not playing into the hands of her enemy. The dragonpit meeting was a clear example of how insignificant she becomes in situations where she cannot use her dragons. She is the most inconsequential member during the meeting that is only taking place for her benefit as she had nothing meaningful to contribute.

She makes everyone journey from the North where the threat is, all the way to Kings Landing just to crib about how the dragons who were destroying the common people were locked up causing the Targaryens to become ordinary.

After Cersei initially refuses to help, instead of reassuring Jon that her focus will remain on the Army of the Dead she complains about how Cersei will take back half the country if she leaves. Even after seeing the army she is not fully committed to the cause.

The more she keeps veering away from the recommendations of her advisors, the more she will continue to make impulsive decisions that will be detrimental to her in the long run.

[the-end-of-the-storm]

GoT 8x01: the wait is over and winter is definitely here - beware the spoilers below -

I just want to say beforehand that I woke up at 2.30 am to watch the new episode - so if this makes no sense at all, well ... let’s blame it on my sleep-deprived brain.

• Don’t know if we already knew this but they actually played the same song from the pilot when D*ny and Jon arrived and it made me a bit melancholic. It’s been a ride.

• The way Missandei eyes the Northerners watching her with distrust had me feel for her. However, watching it for the second time, it gave me another vibe too. As she was a slave, she knows exactly what it means to serve and obey someone you don’t want. So, if Missandei ends up urging D*ny at some point to leave the North be and just rule the other six kingdoms, well, I wouldn’t be surprised.

• Did you notice how happy D*ny was when her dragons intimidated the Northerners? It‘s been a while since I’ve seen her this happy:

This shot is Immediately followed by what has become her signature smug smirk that I dislike so much. Ships aside, a Queen worthy of the title shouldn’t have this kind of reaction to her children imposing fear on her newest subjects who she knows do already not like her all that much. This is like the dragon pit all over again, you know, when she was late to the meeting she demanded, and rode in on a dragon like she already owns the place, when it would have been so much smarter to be a little respectful and humble.

• The Jon and Bran reunion was nice; I suppose as nice at it can get with 3-eyed-Bran. Also, if Jon ever starts looking at D*ny like this, I‘ll start reevaluating him being part of the pack but not a heartbeat before:

• They made Sansa look THIS good for a reason. A sight for sore eyes, isn‘t it Jon?

(And yeah, this is her watching Jonny Boy.)

(And so is this.)

(Now, she’s too busy hugging her man. A smile on her lips and CLOSED eyes ... hmm. Do you see how her hands aren’t even attached to each other yet? Alright, let’s move on, shall we?)

• Lyanna Mormont is the Noorf in a nutshell and I’m here for her angry little girl attitude:

•Sansa isn’t here for chit chat with the saviour and whenever I think I couldn’t stan my girl more, I do. But I’m a bit afraid too, Sansa hates her new Queen amd D*ny KNOWS. 🔥

• Ok, I watched the meeting with the lords very carefully and I made some observations that I just want to throw in here for good measure: 1) D*ny is the last one to sit down at the Lord‘s table and it means things. 2) When poor little Lord Umber (who fucking deserved better!!) adressed Sansa an then Jon, we have them both in the frame, and no one else. However, when he adresses D*ny, we have her literally standing alone by the fireplace. 3) we have Jon and Sansa alone in a frame on 3 separate occasions, while we have only one shoot of Jon and the supposed love of his life alone (unless you count the one with D*ny and Jon‘s crotch ... then, well good for you, I guess). 4) Jon’s “It was the honor of my life.” fucked me the fuck up. You know, I was really afraid after the leaks that although I whole-heartily believe in Pol!Jon I would be miffed at him before it was officially revealed but I was soo wrong. This whole episode I felt so sad for Jon. He’s been through so much and willing to sacrifice everything he ever wanted to keep his people as safe as he can ... he deserves so much better than to be with the woman who took the honor of his life away from him without giving a single fuck about it. And yes, I did notice how Sansa glared at D*ny during this. Jon “I had a choice: keep the crown or protect the Noorf. I chose the Noorf.” I rest my case. 5) “If anyone survives the war to come, we’ll have Jon Snow to thank.” Right in front of D*ny; Tyrion, you brave, brave fool. 6) I think the leaks said, that neither Sansa nor D*ny said anything and I was very happy to find out that that wasn’t true. This is a very long scene, and D*ny only delivered us this little gem: Sansa: “What do dragons eat anyway?” (Which is a damn reasonable enquiry.) “D*ny: “Whatever they want.” 🔥 Maybe I’m overreacting things but this felt like a threat. Seriously, the Dark D*ny Force was strong in this one. They really went there ... wow. I mean it‘s not as if the food question wasn‘t legit. Also this whole the dragons *only* ate 17 goats and 11 of some-other-animal today is proof to me that the food thing is going to be huge. (Also, at first, I thought D*ny was worried that they eat too much when it was the other way around. LOL.)

• Tyrion: “Lady of Winterfell: has a nice ring to it.” Sansa: “So does Hand of the Queen; depends on the queen I suppose.” She really isn’t messing around, is she?

Also Sansa, same scene: “I used to think you are the cleverest man alive.” accompanied by her little judgy smile. She sure knows how to break a man’s heart.

• I’m crossing my fingers for D*ny to suggest to reactivate the Sansa/Tyrion marriage. Let’s be honest, Tyrion would be all for it in a heartbeat. She’s smarter, prettier and old enough that he wouldn’t feel like a creep anymore and now she actually is the Lady of Winterfell. He wanted her before - he must be drooling for her now.

• I was absolutely not disappointed with the Jon/Arya reunion. I thought - considering the circumstances - it was really cute and worthy.

• Arya: “She’s the smartest person I’ve ever met.” Stark sister feels. *-*

• Jon‘s „I'm her family, too.“ killed me a little bit inside. Man, my Jon feels are killing me right know. How can anyone see this and still claim that Jon will abandon his pack to become a Targaryen?

• When Sansa is the Queen of Shade, Cercei is the Queen of Smirk. I wonder if there’s anyway for Cercei to get out of this alive.

• Back to the food thing: it‘s been two years since S7, so thanks for the reminder that the Lannister army in the Field of Fire was people too, and were burned up like Sunday roast. 🔥

• I can’t believe that Yara is absolutely not pissed that D*ny couldn’t give less craps about her being abducted by Euron. even though without her Dany couldn’t have crossed the Narrow Sea.

• Alys Karstark, I see you and your red hair and your complete random appearance that served no plot purpose. Yet.

• Davos “What if the Seven Kingdoms (...) were ruled by a just woman and an honorable man.” I see what you did there, D&D. Also, if you guys are contemplating a J/D marriage, could you please have the decency and do it in front of Sansa? I need that. Thanks x

• If D&D wanted be to stop believing in Pol!Jon they shouldn’t have him happy-riding a dragon and kissing D*ny seconds after having her low-key threatening his sister. It’s just not believable that if this romance was real and between equals that he wouldn’t make it clear that she can’t threaten his family. Dany: “She doesn’t need to be my friend but I am her queen. If she can’t respect me ...” Jon: *then perish*

• Ok, but seriously D*ny, why would you give the guy you’ve just met and whose family and people despise you access to the the very things that gave you all your power? Why would you suggest dragon riding like it means nothing? Hop on, Jonny Boy. Just no. I have soo many questions. Why would you be so careless? (Arrogance, that’s why.)

• JON DOESN’T SAY “WE COULD STAY HERE FOR A THOUSAND YEARS.” But Pol!Jon replies with “We’d be pretty old.” giving no indication that that would be an enticing thought. No, he’d rather go back and fight some wights. Jon has a family he cares about and I don’t think she can relate at all.

•Rheagal is a creeper. Seriously, did you see the full on of him during the J/D snagging. Get a life, Rhaegal!

• I LOVED the Tent 2.0 Scene. Get my son some air. Also, while Jon talks serious stuff, Sansa’s like “No, she’s much prettier (than the Mad King).” with the same gaze she had when Littlefinger told her that a marriage alliance between J/D would make sense. I think it was the same weird voice too, but I’m not 100% sure right now. Jon really does reply nothing after Sansa questioning his motives for bending the knee and it tells me all I need to know.

• On this note, I want to repeat that I really need someone suggest a J/D marriage to Sansa.

• Sam finding out about his father and especially his brother broke my heart. It was everything I wanted and knew his reaction to be. And it was much worse to watch unfold than the leaks made it out to be. Especially since the scene started out really cute with Sam all nervous to be talking to them and cute about his book-stealing past and then he even tries to stay reasonable after hearing about his father but then he learns about his brother ... and it’s just too fucking much. Look at his face. I never ever cry during shows or movies but if I hadn't been prepared beforehand, I probably would have.

• Bran needs to stop staring at people in the courtyard. Just sayin’.

• Jon and Sam in the crypts. My poor babies. I don’t really want to say anything about their talk at this point because I believe in Jon and his agenda and if he needs to be detached to deal with keeping up the facade, then my man needs to do what he needs to do. However, I will be watching his next interaction with Sansa very closely. OK, to be honest, since I already had read the leaks before the episode, I was a little distracted during the parentage reveal and I couldn’t help but imagine Jon thinking “Well, this explains a fucking lot.”

• Last but not least: JAIME IS IN WINTERFELL!!!

My favorite moments:

- The Tarly Reveal

- Jon x Arya Reunion

- all Jonsa scenes

- Sansa and Tyrion on the battlements

On my threatened-to-be-burned watchlist:

🔥 Sansa Stark

🔥 Lyanna Mormont

🔥 Lord Varys

🔥 Samwell Tarly

🔥 Gendry Waters / Baratheon

🔥 JAIME LANNISTER (I have a hard time imagining Jaime to keep his mouth shut when he realizes that D*ny doesn’t just fry up soldiers in battle but that it’s her favorite method of conducting justice. There is too much history and PTSD between them, they’re like a time bomb; you can’t put them under one roof without at least threatening to set it off.)

All in all, this was such a good episode and I’m thrilled to see what’s to come. I’m so happy that Jon is still all I hoped for him to be inside and that Jonsa is still on track. I was even a little surprised at how they portrayed D*ny in this episode, because D&D aren’t even trying anymore, are they? I might be a little biased but I think if you’re not a full on stan there wasn’t much to root for her in this one. Anyways, everything within the episode fitted neatly with our Pol!Jon, Dark!D*ny and Jonsa theories and I couldn’t be happier about it.

Cheers xxx

[gillyflovvers]

A couple of things about the new spoilers:

 - D*ny is getting dragged by everyone and Jon doesn’t say a word to defend her or his decision. The most he can muster is “we need allies”. That doesn’t sound very romantic to me. 

 - After they were both dragged by everyone he goes on a joy ride with her and plays the part of good little boyfriend. After what happens with the Northern lords I’m sure she’s regretting her decision to go North. So why wouldn’t Jon want to sweeten her up and make her happy after that fiasco? After all, isn’t making sure D*ny remains invested in their relationship so that she will remain North the whole point of Pol!Jon? He has to continue to play his role, do his part. Seems to me he’s doing just that. Bonus: He now has a pet dragon to even the odds when they inevitably have a falling out.

 - After watching D*ny and Jon fly, Tyrion, Davos, and Varys supposedly start discussing a possible marriage alliance. Funny that none of them mentioned the possibility last season when it would have made the most sense. Advising them to marry before Jon bent the knee would have been sound advise, now it’s too little too late. They’ve already lost the goodwill of the Northerners so Jon marrying Dany would just add insult to injury at this point basically ensuring it’s never gonna happen.

 - Sansa and Jon have a heated argument about Jon’s new companion. She demands to know if he is in love with her and Jon can’t even answer. Like, why? He’s already given up his crown and the damage has already been done. So why can’t he tell Sansa, a person he loves and trust, that he’s in love with this woman? There is no reason for him to not tell her the truth. Sansa is asking him this because she already believes it, so him confessing couldn’t possibly make the situation any worse. So what other reason does Jon have for not answering? Jonsa. The reason is Jonsa.

 - The burning of the Tarly’s and Sam’s reaction are everything I hoped for and expected. Add that as another nail on the coffin for J*nerys.

Given the above, I’m feeling pretty good right about now. 

[jonsaslove]

the jonsa or lack of it

maybe i’m a northern fool but god this ep has boosted my confidence just like 8x01 did.

First, I’ll say I’m convinced they’re only going to give us breadcrumbs up until the point of being ready to reveal jonsa fully, they want to hold on until the moment it will have the most power (like with sansa/arya and littlefinger). They will keep up with the hints and subtext in the meantime.

Secondly, we got no explicit Jonsa or even a one on one (or more personal scene). However, we did get Jon agreeing with Sansa over D*enerys and the Starks presenting a united front in the war room, with Jonsa centred in nearly all the shots.

On top of this you can SEE SANSA’S THOUGHT PROCESS SWITCH DURING HER CONVO WITH DANY! It’s been said, but she literally goes from closed off and reserved with a slight coldness until D*enerys says “who manipulated whom” we get a huge zoom in and then Sansa pauses and LAUGHS, you see the wheels turning...whether we got jon telling sansa off screen after last eps convo or not this is the moment Sansa realizes the deception and she immediately starts playing D*ny with a different approach. She makes jokes and tries to use her true courtesies...and then the kicker is she is still playing the game by bringing up northern independence, she butters D*ny up and then sees how she reacts to a rather reasonable question (hint it’s not good and it sets up dark d/ny even more)!

Lastly I want to talk about th*onsa. First I want to say i am a multishipper and do love their dynamic, I even have a tag. I squealed over their reunion and slight moment at the end. However, I do not think it is something we need to worry about Re: endgame jonsa and here’s why. I love the potential th*onsa has and the chemistry is great but in canon it is not going to work.

Sansa’s entire arc has been centred around being able to have children, to being able to continue the stark name, to provide heirs, and to rebuild her family. These are things that Theon cannot provide. Even if Jonsa doesn’t happen, we will see Sansa be with someone who can give her children.

Also, people have pointed out that in the books Theon and Sansa do not have this rekindling and they won’t, his devotion and relationship is with Jeyne. If we assume that the endings are at least somewhat similar to what GRRM has planned then we do not need to worry.

And finally, I know others disagree, even other Jonsa shippers, but I truly did not see their interactions as anymore romantic than they were framed in S6. For me as a shipper of them my biggest th*onsa moments was their hug and when sansa was so upset about him not coming north to castle black with them. These moments did not progress that relationship in my mind, they had a beautiful hug and theon renewed his devotion to Sansa. I know there’s worry about the framing of them with the other couples at the end but this does not worry me either. Sam, little sam, and Gilly were representative of a family, and who knows what Gendry and Arya were (that sex scene didn’t scream true romance to me so).

Anyways, I have a lot of hope for the coming weeks and I hope you all do too! Jonsa still has a good chance imo and if anyone is feeling doubtful I’m here to talk just dm!